Against All Odds and a little Q&A

The thing about affairs is that they end.  Whether the MM/MW stays with their spouse, leaves their spouse, whether the OW/OM leaves and moves on or whether the affair partners end up together.  Statistics show that if a MM/MW is going to leave their spouse, it will happen in the first 6 months.  If it doesn’t happen then, it is never going to happen.  Or is it?  And why would the betrayed spouse, if they ever find out about the affair, want to stay?  Why would the cheating spouse want to stay?  Why would the affair partner want the MM/MW to become their partner?  Don’t they think that “once a cheater always a cheater?”  And as I have been asked – how do you expect something good to grow from something that started out wrong.

All good questions.  Not a lot of answers.  I was physically involved with my MM from 7/2007 until 12/2009 when his wife found out about our affair.  I didn’t ask him to leave.  But I did buy those books about how to end an affair or at least stay in an affair without going crazy, recognizing that he’s never going to leave.  And not really wanting him to leave.  My early posts, after D-day waxed poetic about not wanting to be with him, not wanting him to leave is W for me, not wanting to take on all on his issues. 

And here I am.  Against all odds.  With my xMM – now boyfriend.  Yup.  What are the odds of that?  I was perhaps one of the few bloggers who felt a modicum of relief at d-day.  But my ego was insufferable.  Why didn’t he pick me?  Why? Why? Why?  Could none of you in cyber land reach through the computer and slap me across the face???  And you call yourselves my friends.  Ha!

So – here we are – almost 3 years after d-day.  Like any other unremarkable ‘couple.’  We fight, we hang out, we go to the movies, out to dinner, we are invited to weddings and other social occasions together.  But we still live in 2 different states.  We still aren’t married.  We still have separate health insurance policies.  We still don’t have a joint mortgage.  Will we?  I don’t know. Do I want that? I still don’t know.  Maybe, like the gambler I am, I’m hedging my bets.  Just in case. 

Some days the pain of d-day burns me.  I still, for whatever messed up reason, can’t let it go.  I need to know ever excruciating detail of that time we weren’t together, what he did, where he want, what he said, what his wife said, whether they were having sex, therapy, going out, to dinner, to parties, on trips.  When I get a chance to snoop I do it mercilessly – reading old emails – the ones that were “sent”, the chats, the old networking emails to/from anyone during that time we didn’t see each other, weren’t “allowed” to see each other.  Also known as “no contact”.  The no-contact didn’t last very long, although at the time it felt like forever.  D-day was 12/9/2009; we spoke on 1/21/2010, but had emailed/texted a few times in between.  Once we spoke on 1/21 it was fairly regular after that.  The emails he had with his W, didn’t mention that.  The chat’s he had with his W didn’t mention that.  He was so “excited” to have dinner with his W; so “happy” she was going with him on the business trip that he had asked me to go on (of course I said no, and she didn’t know); the chats back and forth were so sickeningly sweet, I wanted to throw up reading them.  And of course, the fact that they discussed me during those chats, those emails makes my blood boil. And he agreed with her – that I was the one that forced the relationship; that I was the one that begged him to continue seeing me and wouldn’t take “no” for an answer; that I was a gossip with a big mouth and would tell everyone about our “affair;” that I was the one that was needy, selfish, demanding and over the top.  Are you fucking kidding me?!?!?!?  I read some of these emails and chats recently and it has taken all of my self-control not to slap the shit out of him.  But then I remember, that was 2 years ago.  And he was deciding what to do, how to proceed.  Grrrrrrrrrr.  And even after he and I had seen each other, after he and his wife decided to get divorced, he was worried about . . . what???? If he was doing the right thing.  Damn.  To see those emails, makes me nuts.  It’s like those stupid law and order tv shows – when the judge tells the jury to disregard what they’ve heard the witness say.  Are you kidding me??  Once you hear it, you can’t un-hear it.  Once you read it, you can’t unread it.  Once you know something, you can’t un-know it. 

I hate that I know what I know.  And all we ever talked about, blogged about was – I wish I knew.  Ignorance is bliss. 

Here are the questions and the answer that we all so desperately want after d-day:

  1. What are they talking about it?  You!  It is always you, even when it’s not you, you’re the “elephant” in the room.
  2. Why did the W or H take them back?  They were frozen in time, thinking: how did this happen? How did we get here? Who are you? How am I going to tell my family, his/her family, friends, co-workers?  Do I want to tell them? Do I have to take any responsibility for how we got here or can I blame my wayward spouse? How can I afford our home on my salary? Do I want to get divorced? Can I get passed hating you?  Hating the OW/OM?  Better yet, I’m going to blame everything on the OW/OM and the wayward spouse.
  3. Are they sleeping together?  Yes
  4. Having sex?  Yes.
  5. Is it good?  Not really, but they are going to fake their way back into it.  And worse, the betrayed spouse doesn’t want him/her touching her.  But they are going to fuck away the memories of the OW/OM.  Too bad it doesn’t work that way.  Why?  Because once you’re in the affair, it’s more than the sex.  That’s why the sex is so great.
  6. Is your MM/MW telling their spouse that they are calling you?  No.  In fact, they are saying that you are dogging them, wont leave them alone and that they keep asking you to respect that request to leave them to work on the mess they’ve created.
  7. Are they happy?  Ha ha ha.  Unless they are without conscience, no they are not.  Are they struggling to find themselves again?  Yes, they are.

My xMM wrote to his W that he had “done a stupid thing” and was very sorry.  Yeah, a stupid thing is leaving the milk on the counter over night, not a 3 year long affair.  He sent an “apology” email to his mother-in-law asking her for forgiveness.  (Was he fucking her too?) I loved reading that one.  

I wonder, as I sit here, that the lies flowed so easily from my xMM/BF to his w for more than 3 years, that he was able to “cover his tracks” for over 3 years, that if given the opportunity, would he do the same thing to me?  Could he do the same thing to me?  I recently came across an email that he had sent to a woman that I questioned their relationship/friendship (I blogged about it).  The email was in the “trash” folder.  The knowledge festered in my brain until I confronted him.  (I was on his computer, helping him with a legal matter, deleted my memo and had to go into the “trash” folder to retrieve it.  Wow!  What a lot of information is in there.)  When I asked him whether he would have told me about it had I not seen it, he said “no”.  Hmmmm, a lie by omission is as much a lie.  Needless to say, I was a bit shaken.  I didn’t care that she had contacted him (well, a little), or that he had responded back (well, a little.)  What sent me into a rage was that he hadn’t told me she had contacted him and would have continued to lie to me.  It felt like he was hiding her from me, the way he hid me from is w.  Not that extreme, but you get the point.  Once a liar . . .

So, ask yourself, when you’re wondering about would have, could have, should have and what if’s, do you feel lucky?  Well do you, punk?

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38 Responses to “Against All Odds and a little Q&A”

  1. Recovering Wayward Says:

    I don’t get it. he did ULTIMATELY leave his wife and pick you — against all odds. Why obsess about the period in between then and D-day? Why snoop into his email (always a bad idea!) and trigger yourself??

    You should be happy, no? You beat all the odds. He is yours.

    So I have to ask. When did you become a legitimate couple? Why don’t you live in the same State? How far apart do you live?

  2. Susan Says:

    RW – I am mostly happy, except when I’m not. Yes, I did “beat the odds” in all respects ending up with my affair partner. (Great sentence, don’t you think? 😉 ). And we do love each other. Not just the ‘star-crossed lovers meeting illicitely in a hotel room and having incredible sex’, but life-partner love. Through lost jobs, sickness, arguments, kids, parents, money (or the lack thereof), etc. And years later, the sex is still great. Again, despite all odds, it actually has gotten better, something I didn’t think possible.

    When did we become a “legitimate” couple? D-day: 12/9/09; a couple of texts in December, 1 in January 2010, 2 emails in 1/10; then the fateful call on 1/21/10. We spoke on/off (mostly on) until we saw each other 3/18/10 (or thereabouts). He and his W agreed to divorce in 4/10. I saw him a couple of weeks later. They “separated” officially end of April-beginning of May – he moved out of the bedroom but they stayed in the same house until 10/2010. We were pretty much out in the open in 5/2010. I separated from my ex in 2/2008 and my divorce was finalized in 2/2010. My divorce wasn’t related to my affair. Because he couldn’t afford another home, at that time, my xMM/BF would come to me. My friends were accepting of “us” but I hadn’t told everyone the entire story. I still don’t think that is everyone’s business. There is plenty to be said for asking someone how they met their partner – i.e., at work, versus: when was the first time you slept together. 😉

    We have certainly had some detractors. Whether to our faces or behind our backs. To know my xMM/BF you would never think him capable of an affair. Yet, isn’t that always the way. I’ve been reading your blog, which I wish you had started 3 years ago, although you weren’t there yet. It has been very insightful for me.

    Why do I read his emails? I hate myself for doing it. I wish I didn’t. But there is that element of trust. A man that no one thought capable of an affair had one with me for 3 years and even during no-contact, as far as his w was concerend he had amputated me, we were in touch. And worse – I refused to call HIM or email him. I told him if he wanted to speak to me, the onus was on him. I didn’t want to be portrayed as one of those crazy xOW mercilessly calling, texting, emailing her xMM. You know the type. I was done, too. And despite the fact that I was not the initiater, he let his w think that I was, and made me out that way. Ironically, in those emails that I shouldn’t have seen, she feels sorry for me. I don’t believe it was legitimate, but feigned so that her husband would think her someone she is not – caring, kind and empathetic. And yet, he still couldn’t, did’t want to let me go.

    We live in different states because that is where are respective children are. We are trying to figure something out logistically. We are 3 1/2 hours apart. We see each other often and have both worked remotely so we can be together during the week, when we don’t have our kids. I will soon be starting a job in an office, and with no travel. So the travel/commuting burden will be on him now, except on the weekends. The distance is starting to wear on me as we have been doing the “commute” now for 2+ years. I would like to have 1 ‘home base.’

    It has been a interesting ride so far. If you would have asked me 10 years ago, 5 years ago, 3 years ago, would I have imagined myself here, I would have told you that you were crazy. And yet here I am.

    I have a few comments for you too. Looking forward to hearing your answers. 🙂

  3. Recovering Wayward Says:

    Thanks for the explanation. It helps give me a context. You truly HAVE beaten the odds. It’s rare. I hope you continue to progress as a couple.

    Whatever questions you have for me, fire away!

    • AOW Says:

      RW…I also just discovered your blog. While I truly wish you well, reading your blog from the standpoint of a former jilted, ditched, hurt and confused OW was very painful. I made a mess of my life over a man who “loved” me, asked me to believe in him, spent hours complaining about the state of his marriage….and then stayed with his wife. His lack of care or concern for me….once his wife found out…has been INCREDIBLY damaging. I do understand that you believe the behavior of your own OW was “crazy.” I said a prayer for her, because I understand the INTENSE pain that can cause a woman to act in ways that seem impossible to imagine. 😦 I pray that you XOW has been able to heal and find peace….while you have been helping yourself and your wife heal….

      So shaken and sad….

      • Susan Says:

        AOW – I was waiting for you to comment. I was actually going to email you. Where was RW when we needed him in 2009? 2010? Missing you and thinking of you often. And doing some struggling on my end too.
        (((hugs)))

      • Morgan Says:

        I felt the same thing, AOW, when I read RW’s blog….it’s kind of like stereotyping at it’s best—-most men who have affairs ditch the OW and call her “crazy”…and then there’s the heartbroken OW who have been left with a huge pile of lies and promises and for the OM it’s just a little nothingness to remember.
        Damaged and intense pain are what we were left with…and here we are almost 3 years later and that pain still lingers. Never to be forgotten…by us or our spouses.
        Like you, I feel horrible for his XOW….because the spin was put there and the heartache is oh so deep. In the end…it’s all a tragedy. 😦

      • AOW Says:

        Morgan, being a called crazy by the xMM is a self-fulfilling prophecy (or xMM fulfilling prophecy!)

        Here we were IN LOVE, ready to change our lives, feeling so darn sorry for our dear MM about the horrible life of neglect that they had been living…..and then WHAAAAAM! We don’t mean a thing to them. They have zero concern our lives or our emotions. Not only do they turn all of their love and concern onto their wonderful, understanding, saintly wives who have forgiven them….but then they place ALL the blame on the CRAZY OW. Yeah….it makes me crazy to even think about it!!! 🙂 Sooooo horrible to see it written out by a MM…. Bleh! Makes me want to pick up the phone and call a wife…or send out a copy of a loving email written by her dear husband! 🙂 LOL!!! I’m just joking, of course, but I completely understand that kind of “crazy!”

        I truly do NOT understand how any xMM can have peace in their soul until they can apologize and make amends to the OW. A No Contact letter doesn’t fucking count. How about, “I am so sorry for feeding you a bunch of lines and using your body until I was caught by my wife….and then ditching you and trashing you..” BLEH!

        Morgan, I hope you’re doing well. I pray for you and your family all the time.

        Yes, you’re right. In the end, it was all a tragedy.

    • AOW Says:

      Susan, I miss you, too…and think about you all the time. I hope all is well with you and that things turn out in a way that is best for YOU.
      Ah….2009….I hate to even hear a reference to that year on TV.

  4. Eveningstar Says:

    Thank you for this. I am in the No Contact minefield myself. It’s been almost 3 months since D-Day (and the affair itself was less than 2 months) and although his wife forbids contact (and my husband as well but I have not, unlike my AP, made any promises) he has reached out to me many many times since then. I finally sent a NC letter because the partial contact felt both confusing and unsatisfying, and it’s been a couple of weeks of pure silence an I’m frankly going crazy. I feel decision paralysis – I’m so hung up on him that I can’t give my marriage any serious consideration and yet, in spite of the NC letter, I can’t let him go an fear that he might always remain in my heart regardless of what I decide in life. To make things even more stressful, my husband has been communicating with his wife recently – and he will not share what they are discussing. I’m at the point where I am almost just standing back watching things unfold because I am at a loss of what I want and what I should do.

    • Susan Says:

      Eveningstar – Welcome. Unfortunately. No contact is shitty. No matter who initiates it, no matter who is on the receiving end. And it feels interminable. I would be interested in your story. How did you end up here? Why, for goodness sake, is your H, talking to his W?? That sounds like a recipe for disaster. And forgive me for saying this, but if your h isn’t sharing the contents of the conversations, then he is creating quite a distrustful atmosphere. Don’t you think? One that he didn’t like being on the receiving end of, I’m guessing. Please come back and share your story. There is alot of support on these blogs.
      (((hugs))) Susan

      • Eveningstar Says:

        Thanks Susan. My story goes … I had been happily married for 8 years and have 2 young kids. Well, I thought I was happily married because I had such a fulfilled family life. After my second maternity leave, I returned to work and after about six months started getting close to a coworker I had been attracted to since I first set eyes on him 3 years earlier. My last crazy attraction was to my husband 12 years earlier. Anyways we started with lunches, added coffee breaks, walks after work and finally full on evening dates. We had 6 short weeks of fulfillment. In the evenings we would text for hours and on weekends bring our kids out for playdates. I didn’t realize my life had a void until he filled it. We certainly felt a strong emotional connection – he said he had never felt such happiness and he had in those 6 weeks. And then my husband one day feeling suspicious broke into my phone and it was over. He confessed to his wife, eventually, everything including that he may be in love and have found his soulmate. We kept connected by phone on occassion as our marriages fell apart. He took his wife to Europe for 10 days and I thought that way the end of things until he contacted me to report how things went. Then one week we started seeing each other for coffee and lunch again, and were again lost in each other. Only now we talked about seperation options, but he is so practical and concerned about his kids that he says he doesn’t think he could go through with it an that I shouldn’t count on him to be there should I leave my spouse. He wants me to return to my spouse and he to return to his. My feeling is that he wants to restore things and then will reach out again to me. So I sent him a goodbye letter – a heartfelt one that expressed my disappointment and sadness that he could not take a chance on us even though we both feel that would could have had something true and wonderful. At around that time my husband and his wife got in touch and have been swapping stories, comforting each other. I’m not sure why she is staying with him when he has said that it is for the kids. I feel decision paralyses – 12 Years is a long time to throw away especially with kids involved and yet, I need to know we can rebuild a true fulfilling marriage – not a superficial one that on a deeper level is full of unrequited dreams and resentment. I think my husband and I both deserve that but right now we don’t know if we can do that for each other. And tommorow I return to working in the same building with my AP. it’s so stressful now – whereas before I longed to bump into him now not sure if I will be greeted with a smile or be snubbed. And all the while I still miss him and feel convinced that given the opportunity, we could rekindle this relationship in the future so easily if we wanted because we were that right for each other.

  5. Susan Says:

    AOW and Morgan – I also feel badly for the portrayal of the xOW as “crazy.” But isn’t that always the way. I said so in my post and in my response to RW. Funny, when I was in my “no-contact” period, it was one of my girl friends who told me not to call, text or reach out to my xMM for that EXACT reason, to NOT be portrayed as the crazy, lunatic of an xOW. And yet, that was how I was portrayed. When I read the emails/chats between my xMM and his W, he told her that I CONTACTED HIM. She would respond that it wasn’t healthy for me to do that, and what did I hope to gain. The difference between my xMM and RW (and the other xMM) is that he would say it was work related, we knew people in common or go off on a tangent about something else. Of course, he would also say: I told her not to cal/text/emaill me again; and W would say: I’m so glad you told me she contacted you; I’m so glad you told her not to call/text/email you. And it was all a load of bullshit.

    Did I send emails/texts or call the W? No, but I certainly fantasized about it. Did I threaten to? Yes. When? When I told my xMM to leave me alone after d-day/no-contact; when he told me that he was trying to figure things out without me as the distraction (code for working on his marriage, fucking his w, and taking her to the Carribean). I asked him is she knew, despite his promise to not contact me, that he was, that HE WAS THE ONE calling/texting/emailing. And he would say: No, she doesn’t need to know; it wouldn’t help the situation. Really??? I wasn’t going to be a secret anymore – and certainly not to save his ass. I wanted to walk away. BUT – if he was going to stay with his W (or rather – whether she was going to stay with him), shouldn’t she know what he was doing? He was talking about me and our affair in therapy. It was front and center in their lives. But the lie about not speaking to me was perpetuated. After I got the “however comma I love my wife” email (which still fucking burns me), I sent a short, 2 paragraph reply, exposing his most recent lies to his W – that we hadn’t seen each other very much over the past year (lie), that he used a condom during sex (lie, lie), that he tried to end the affair but I was the pursuer (lie, lie, lie) and he wanted me to corroborate those things. Are you kidding me?!?!?! And then had the nerve, the audacity to say to ME – do you think that I wrote that email or that I was the only one reading the response? He asked if I knew that sending the email would cause another fight, that it wouldn’t help him “work things out.” Do you think that I gave a shit??? I wanted to be gone. He was the crazy one. And you know how he portrayed me or allowed his W to think of me. Yup. The crazy one.

    I did see that in RW’s blog that he was coming to an end in his relationship with his xOW, that he wanted to end it, wasn’t sure, needed the time to figure things out and even after d-day, wasn’t sure if being with his W is where he wanted to be – i.e., without his OW. If we take for true the anecdotes he recounts about his xOW being dishonest, etc., during their relationship (which we have no reason to doubt), she does seem a bit unhinged. And no matter whether he was married or single, no one likes to be the one dumped. But the portrayal of her as “Fatal Attraction” may or may not be true. Wouldn’t it be nice to hear her side of the story. I’m sure it would be different than RW. My heart breaks for her. I hope she finds peace. I think it so elusive. No matter how the affair ends, there is plenty of pain that remains, but none worse than not knowing. And of course, knowing.

  6. Susan Says:

    Eveningstar – Did you see him at work? Did you bump into each other? I’m sad reading your story. Limbo is the worst place to be. For you. Do you want to stay in your marriage or leave? My BF/xMM, used to talk about “staying for the kids, until the kids are grown” forever. And I didn’t ask him to leave his w. We talked about being soul mates, star crossed lovers is what he liked to say – fantasizing about the what ifs – what if we had met 20 years ago, lived closer, didn’t have kids, mortgages, lives, etc. Yes, I think that if you didn’t send the letter, he would want to resume a relationship with you. If he’s staying for the kids, he is going to need to fill that emotional and sexual void, and who better to do that with than you. 🙂

    I hate reading that your H and his W are “comforting” each other. About what? Wouldn’t you like to be a fly on the wall for those conversations? Or insist that they stop? If the 2 of them are speaking, they are not letting things progress because they each must be a reminder of their spouse’s affair. So the very thing they find “comforting” is the constant reminder of the affair. But for the affair, they wouldn’t have anything to say to each other.

    I do believe that life is about being happy. Obviously not to be purposefully hurtful is good too. You didn’t set out to have an affair and hurt your H. But something was missing. And the length of the marriage shouldn’t really matter. I was married almost 20 years – 2 kids, 2 homes, cars, mortgages, jobs, etc. when I got divorced. While I didn’t leave for an affair partner, I needed to leave. Leave or stay for yourself. Not for someone else.

    • Eveningstar Says:

      One thing I didn’t note is that shortly after my H found out about my affair, we seperated. We take turns staying at a condo 3-4 days per week so that we can keep the kids at home. It’s a short term solution to give us time to figure things out. Just Monday he informed me that he has been out partying lots, making out with random women and that there is one who he is spending a lot of time with. This floored me. I had assumed time apart was meant to be spent alone and working towards rebuilding. I understand that his esteem is suffering but dating other people doesn’t seem compatible with working on our marriage. So while we have a few counselling sessions left, right now I can’t see how we an return to each other even if we wanted to. I suppose what also floored me was that I wasn’t as upset as both he and I expected I’d be. A bit resentful and quite disturbed more than anything. That sort of makes me wonder if I don’t want to stay married to him. They say you know when it’s time to divorce, but I’m not sure what those signs are. But the decision may end up his as he now says he wants to file in December after I told him that I think there is a part of me that will always belong to my AP and will always wonder what could have been. I think that’s normal and typical but he says he cannot live with that.

      No, I haven’t crossed paths with my AP. It’s torturous and it takes all my willpower to not just show up at his office, close the door and fall into his arms in spite of my letter. I am afraid that giving him up may be giving up that great love of my life as I have not felt this way about any man before.

      I did have a question for you, and maybe you cannot answer – I’m not sure. I think my AP, like your BF/xMM has that instinct to try to fix things – fake it til you make it, as he would say. At what point do your BF and his W realize that it wasn’t going to work? Was there some turning point (a big fight?) or was it that with time, they realized that those efforts to do all the things the books tell them couldn’t be sustained til death do them part if their hearts were not truly belonging to each other? My gut tells me that my AP and his W are doomed to divorce – one can only be unhappy for so long – and he has said things like we should wait until our kids are frown to be together but that’s years and years. I’ve told him that it’s inevitable so why waste her time, but he feels compelled to try. When did you BF and his W realize that they were done trying and that it truly wasn’t worth the effort? How did they change was loving words against you to realizing that it was not heartfelt and had to end?

      • Susan Says:

        Eveningstar – I’m sorry for the delayed response. I agree with your assessment of your relationship with your H. I think we have affairs for all kinds of reasons but it seems that there was something missing in your relationship with your H and when faced with the possibility of “trying to make it work” or “move on” you want to move on. I think you’ve probably moved on already. Hence, the affair.

        As for my BF/xMM and his W – I’m a bit of a stalker so I know more than the average OW/GF. My BF is a pleaser – he spends a tremendous amount of time worrying about everyone else’s happiness, doing the “right thing” and especially doing what is “expected of him”. I think the turning point for him was that his W went to Puerto Rico with her mother and kids for a week in mid April. xMM and I had seen each other, he begged me to come and stay with him then, b – and said:ut I refused. I told him – all or nothing; out in the open or nothing. No more secret. He told me that week while his w was away, that he loved me, that he couldn’t bear to lose me, that he was going to tell her he wanted to separate when she got home. I told him what I always told him – actions speak louder than words. And also – don’t do it for me, do it for you, because I don’t want you to resent me later. Well – his W was in Puerto Rico taking photos of herself in a bikini and posting them on Match.com – with the moniker: sexy_girly_girl and the sub-title “kiss me quick”. SHE came home and SHE told him that he was right, that he wasn’t happy and she thought that they should divorce. He moved into the basement after that. They went to dinner, arrived at a “mutual” decision, and he went outside, with her instruction and ‘blessing’ to call me to tell me the news. Afterwards, my poor xMM was depressed – were they doing the right thing, was his W happy and the worst thing that I read (snooping of course), was that if she told him to “give me up,” he would. WTF? He questioned it every step of the way, but his xW was firm. She made the decision. I wonder, to this day, if she had said that she wanted to be with him, what would he have done. He seemed incapable of hurting anyone but me, of lying to everyone about me and trudging through an unhappy life, to please everyone but himself (and of course, me). And throughout everything – all the emails, texts, couple counseling, I was the topic of conversation – how much he loved me, how I made him happy, how his W didn’t make him happy, how they didn’t have sex, had no physical relationship, that I was his soul mate. And yet for almost 4 months he tried to shut me out – or at least continue to keep me a secret. It makes me crazy to think about the ‘no contact’ time and what he and his w were doing, saying, fucking, etc. I have a hard time letting go of the past. The good thing is that his xW has proved me and him right – she’s a nightmare, horrible, disgusting. He has looked at me, years later, having gone through a couple of psychologists/psycho-pharmacologists, and hours of talking and soul searching – “What was I thinking marrying her? What was I thinking staying married to her?” The most telling thing he ever told me, was when he and his W were engaged (before they even got married), she went out for a run and it got dark and she hadn’t returned. And he fantasized about her not coming back, and being free. And not having to hurt her feelings. He has told me that story at different times and it never changes. Yeah, I felt that way about my xH too. So I divorced him. Asked for it and got it.

        The long and short of it is, I don’t know what the “aha” moment was. I think it was that his now xW was young and wanted to be young when she had to start looking for someone else, and she was/is super thin, and photographing

        There is no magic turning point. Apathy is very strong. Doing nothing is as much a decision as acting. These blogs are full of peopel who do nothing. What a shitty way to live.

  7. Recovering Wayward Says:

    I didn’t realize I was getting so ripped up on this blog.

    Well, to answer some of you above — I’m not stereotyping her. Have you actually read the things she did to me during and after the affair? Everyone in real life that knows her and the situation are stunned and really ARE calling her “crazy.” Her behavior was completely wrong, disingenuous and out of bounds. I’m not exaggerating a thing here. I mean, I terminated things a YEAR AGO. 3 weeks ago, she sent a NUDE VIDEO OF HERSELF to my work cell phone. I took her to Court last fall to get a restraining order. It was painful and expensive. Do you think I would’ve done that if it wasn’t necessary? I”m not a rich man. I was THAT desperate to get this neurotic woman away from me and my family.

    And please remember that D-day was engineered by HER. She sent an “anonymous” email to my wife telling her of the affair, in the desperate hope that my wife would throw me out and into her arms.

    So this pain she’s feeling from me terminating things was largely HER doing.

    I’m not even going to go into the myriad lies she told me, and the dirty tricks she played on me to manipulate the situation, during the affair.

    So go ahead. Sympathize with her. But her pain is largely as a result of her actions.

    • Susan Says:

      RW – Yes. In a nutshell. I’ve read your blog. Yes. I think your OW has a few (or maybe more) issues. I think that being dumped, whether the dumper is single or married, is painful. I think that many people wonder why things didn’t work out but do not behave as your xOW. Yes, I think, reading your blog that her behavior is not healthy. But, you can imagine, that she see things differently. And while it seems that you’ve tried to give her closure, she isn’t accepting of it. I think what people struggle with – or at least what I’ve always had a difficult time with is – you had an affair that lasted YEARS. What has changed in your marriage and/or your W, that would make you think that (1) things are better; (2) things are going to continue to get better/stay that way; (3) that you wont find yourself back in another affair in time; and (4, 5, infite) why would your w take you back? But from the OW’s perspective, when the affair ends, we need an explanation and closure. As for an apology, I think that 2 consenting adults, entering into a relationship where one or the other is married, is fodder for a bad result if either hopes it will end well. I think affair partners use each other. But never underestimate the nagging questions from the OW: WHY didn’t he pick me? WHY did he tell me he loved me and then leave me? HOW can he walk away so cavalierly after everything he said and treat me like I don’t exist when once, I was the most important person in the world to him? Your xOW orchestrating d-day was probably because she wanted more, didn’t want to wait, wanted to force the issue. I’m a different person and don’t get that behavior. Was she acting on some perceived promise that you were going to leave your w for her? Yeah, I’ve read your blog and think that she really did hurt her own cause. And I really do think that you love(d) her. Endings are always sad and no, I don’t think you are unscathed either. But you have someone else to comfort you. And she is alone with her pain. (And BTW – sending the video is very, very sad).

      • Recovering Wayward Says:

        Sending a nude video of herself to me just 3 weeks ago is beyond “sad”, it’s pathetic, immature and highly narcissistic. She thinks she’s going to ruin my marital recovery merely by me seeing her nude body again?

        The problem with her is that she never takes personal responsibility. Ever. It’s ALWAYS someone else’s fault in her world. She’s never wrong. She’s never sorry. You would think that if she really wanted to “reach” me in some way in the last year, she might have actually owned up to the shit she pulled on me and the lies she told me? A hint of remorse for HER sins? Not a word. Not a peep. In fact, in April, she wrote to me that she “would never hurt” me. Really? All she tried to do since September 2012 was to hurt me. It’s psychotic. Bizarre. Sick.

        As far as the “why” I terminated things, I was VERY clear to her after D-day. I told her until I was blue in the face, but she wouldn’t accept my reasons. She refused to see my side of things and withdraw with love, grace and understanding. Believe me, I told her and told her and TOLD HER!

        If you don’t know them, see my “letter to the ex-OW, in case you find my blog”. I lay it out. I left her because of her behavior. That I was beginning to put things together and realized who she really was. And that certainly gave me pause. And frankly because I had been in turmoil for so long, but my wife actually HAD begun to talk before D-day, and our intimacy was returning and I knew I couldn’t break up my family for the OW (or anyone). Put all those things together and then realizing that it was my OW who was announcing my affair by anonymous email to my wife, friends, RELATIVES, WIVES OF COLLEAGUES….I think I had plenty of reason.

        She just chose not to accept them. Her ego didn’t accept her “losing”. She’s not used to it. If am to believe her (and now I question everything she ever told me), I was the first man to ever dump her and I don’t think she could accept that. Her reaction is not out of love for me, but stems from her own ego needs. I truly believe that.

        I’m glad to be rid of her. I’m sorry I hurt her. Truly I am. But in the end, she largely engineered our demise…and has not shown one iota of sorrow for that. Believe me, I know. I’ve heard from common friends who tell me the story she is peddling about “us” and me. Full of lies. Key facts left out. All to paint herself as the victim and me as the predator. Sad.

      • Recovering Wayward Says:

        here is the link to the “letter to the ex-OW”

        It lays out my reasons and the crap she did to me and lies she told to me pretty clearly

        http://recoveringwayward.wordpress.com/2012/08/26/to-the-ex-ow-in-case-youve-found-my-blog/

        she’s hurt, but honestly, she’s not to be sympathized with. Nobody who knows us both in real life does. I’ve heard from 3 of those people who frankly were shocked by her actions and words. One even said to me, “R**** lies a lot. I wish I knew you better when you started and I would’ve warned you. She’s vicious and mean”

        ’nuff said?

        I’m mad at myself for not recognizing this earlier. My “radar” definitely was broken.

  8. Susan Says:

    RW – Yes, I read the letter. It was very insightful and personal and must have been painful to write. I confess that i felt a little intrusive reading it, but it explained a lot to me. I actually wrote a letter to my xMM’s w. It was very cathartic. I hear you. I do think that she’s unbalanced. And you’re right. Once the explanation or reasons are given, whether you agree or not, you need to walk away. Be graceful. I think that the problem for some of the other OW/OM is that the MM/MW didn’t really end things, but perpetuated in their lies – even after d-day, and no-contact. The continued “I love you and need you, but not now” or “promise me you’ll wait for me while I ‘figure things out;” along with the secret texts, emails, calls was the most cruel. The need for closure rings out for a lot of OW/OM. But you gave it to her. And she didn’t accept it. You gave her an explanation. She didn’t accept it. I would have killed for answers, an insight, anything into what was going on. But I was left with my own imaginings, worse than any truth. Some closure – not the secret texts, phone calls asking me to wait – is preferable than silence. The silence after d-day, when the betrayed spouse finds out is deafening and disquieting. And it is hard to imagine having lived through the explosion of d-day, which is so horrible, your xOW would have engineered it. She must have thought that something ‘good’ would come of it. I hear you. Radars break. It is good if we can fix them. Funny, my BF (a/k/a xMM) questions the working of his ‘radar’ when he married his w. Especially when all of the signs pointed in the opposite direction. Yet sometimes we do things for all the wrong reasons.

    • Recovering Wayward Says:

      Thank you for understanding. 🙂 I certainly see things a lot more clearly now. I feel like getting involved with her was the biggest mistake of my life and I’m glad she’s (mostly) out of my life. I wish her well, but I wish her to stay the hell away from me.

    • Recovering Wayward Says:

      And I really DID tell her in detail why….she just wouldnt’ accept it. I’m not portraying her as the “crazy Ex” because it helps me. It doesn’t! it’s because it’s true. I didn’t take her to court for fun….it was expensive and gut-wrenching. But she was harassing and threatening us. It needed to stop.

  9. AOW Says:

    RW…I have spent a lot of time reading your blog. So far, I haven’t found anything that explains HOW you dumped your OW. Was it the typical, the truth is now out, so I must sink into the NO CONTACT ZONE?

    In your first entry you say “She was a drug and I became addicted.” I realize that her behavior has been crazy and irrational since you ended the affair, I must remind you that being treated as invisible can often push a human being to act out in way that seem unimaginable even to themselves. She is crying out to be recognized as a human being. It is a poor attempt, I’ll admit, but I feel so sorry for what she is/has been going through. No, RW, she was not a drug. She was a human being that shared a deep emotional and sexual relationship with you for two years. She is in pain and there isn’t anyone there to help her understand that she still has value in this world. She is broken, crushed, and left to deal with it while you and your wife have turned your attention onto placing the blame on her luring you or drugging you into an affair. She has become the BAD Other Woman.

    Please take a moment to read the following: http://anotherotherwon.wordpress.com/2012/09/07/why-i-am-here-again/ This is how I feel THREE YEARS after D-day. And by the way….he is the one who told his wife about us. Why did he do it? Because he “wanted to die in my arms….wanted to marry me…loved me.” Yet…once he told his wife….I also became the crazy Other Woman who lured him with my fabulous charms. I was his drug, and thank God for the understanding his wife has shown him, he is clinging to her now as he recovers from his addiction to me. (His story to HER) Bleh! In reality, he has come back to ME time after time professing his undying love, his promise that he isn’t staying with his wife, needs time to do things his own way….blah, blah, blah…..For three years he has shown up in a variety of ways in my life even though I no longer trust him or believe a word out of his mouth. The most recent time was when I was speaking at a public event….there he stood in the crowd…and he lives over three hours away.

    The reason I tell you these things is that my xMM also called me crazy to his wife. He said that “I was a drug and he became addicted.” He did not take ownership of his action where his wife is concerned. Still to this very day. My standard line when he calls me is, “I would be happy to have lunch or a cup of coffee with you. I assume you’ll be telling your wife, though.” UH….guess what? That shuts him down! 🙂 It has been the best way ever to keep him out of my life!

    You are angry at your Other Woman, because she TOLD THE TRUTH. Would you still be in a relationship with her if she had been a good other woman? If she had been willing to endlessly go on in the shadows, would that have worked better for you?

  10. Recovering Wayward Says:

    No, sorry, I am not responsible for the irresponsible and frankly illegal actions of the OW. Not in any way, shape or form. She is an adult. I get to leave a relationship if I choose to, for any reason, like any adult. But breaking up with someone is not a license to harass, stalk and libel them. So I reject your premise completely. Or do you think this only applies to men? Do you blame the woman when an ex-BF goes psycho after a break up and stalks and threatens them? We feel what we feel, but that is not license to do whatever we wish. That’s not how life works.

    That being said. how did I break up with her? My wife was sitting there. First, I told her via Messenger, which was a typical way we communicated. I happened to be getting on a flight that very day. I called her by phone while on the way to the airport and reiterated what I said. Then again that evening. For 2 hours. And the next day. Over and over. Believe me, I told her. Telling her in person was not possible (or frankly even necessary). As I said, i was heading out of town on a business trip and was gone for the next 5 days. My wife demanded that I terminate things with the OW before I left. The OW lives 125 miles away. So it was done by messenger and phone. Not sure what this has to do with anything. Telling her in person would have changed nothing.

    And I don’t know if you have a reason to mischaracterize me and my story. I’m not angry because she TOLD THE TRUTH. I’m angry because she betrayed every confidence I had with her. I’m angry because she set out to hurt me in any way she could just because I terminated things with her. I’m angry because she stalked and harassed me and forced me and my wife to take her to court. I’m angry because despite my demand that she stop contacting us, she called me at work and at home. She emailed my wife and tried to call her, even though my wife demanded that she stopped. I am angry because she told numerous lies about to others in the aftermath of the affair. I’m angry because she exposed the affair with an anonymous email, then lied about it, all in a childish attempt to get my wife to throw her out. I’m angry because despite the judge’s instructions, she has attempted to contact me more than 20 times since then, including sending a NUDE VIDEO OF HERSELF TO MY WORK PHONE just a month ago. She’s messed up. And I guess you are too.

    Believe me, I have reason for anger at her. I had a judge back me up on it. Your note is just so much crap. Nobody that I know that is close to the situation is sympathizing with her. She comes across as being mentally ill. I’m not responsible for that. She is. Don’t bother replying.

  11. AOW Says:

    Don’t tell me not to bother to reply. How arrogant! If you didn’t want me to reply, then you should not have responded to my comment!

    You say that your xOW is messed up, and obviously I am, too. How in the world do you claim to make such an assumption about me? I have not sent nude videos of myself to anyone, nor have i sent anonymous emails. I have, however, told the truth to my xMM’s wife. When she asked me questions, I responded with the truth, which was not popular with my MM!

    Like you, his wife “demanded that he end things….” Like you, her demand took precedence over his many promises and words of love to me. That’s fine. He, you, and all of us, have the right to choose the paths that our lives will take. However, I don’t believe that heartlessly messaging, or a sterile phone connection, are acceptable means to end a relationship where the words love and friendship were one spoken. That kind if behavior is the result of cowardice. It is too common, RW. Wife demands. MM cowers and behaves like a buffoon….and places all of the blame on the OW….the same woman he once held, caressed, and adored.

    • Recovering Wayward Says:

      From the way you write, I am quite sure he is happy to have ended it with you. You have the same psychosis mine did. You think you’re justified in whatever you do based on your hurt. How childish.

      And not ending it in person with her was not cowardly. If you bothered to read (can you read?), I was literally flying out that day. For a week. And she lived pretty far away. And ending it with her in person would’ve changed nothing. She still would’ve reacted the way she reacted. I spent HOURS with her on the phone about it from the airport and from where I flew to – for days. For 3 weeks really. No amount of explanation was going to change the fact that she could not and would not accept the outcome. So you can try and poke me over this issue because you’re mad that you got dumped, but you fall very short in hitting the mark here.

      I did what I had to do. I made a choice. I wanted “out.” As an adult, I get to do that. For ANY reason.

      And she, and you, as adults, need to accept that.

      Deal with it.

      • AOW Says:

        RW…you are not a very kind person.

        From the way I write, you are sure that my xMM is happy to have ended things with me? You must be a mind reader! But you are wrong. He is NOT happy, which might explain why he keeps reappearing in my life. Last week he showed up in my office. (Should I file a restraining order, RW? Should I take him to court?)

        I have psychosis? I was not aware that you are a psychiatrist! I do, however, see a psychiatrist, and he assures me that I am normal. I see a psychiatrist due to the intense damange I did to my own life by having an affair. I DID IT….my xMM contributed BIG TIME, but ultimately, I had an affair. It does not matter that I loved him. I was wrong, and I am paying that price now with intense guilt and self-loathing.

        You asked if I can read. That was one of the most childish comments I have ever seen!

        Ending it in person with your OW would not have changed anything. YES….I CAN READ, and I read that you called her as your wife demanded…because “your were literally flying out that day.” (As opposed to “figuratively” flying out?) Ending things with your OW in person may not have changed the outcome, but it may have prevented the crazy behavior she exhibited after the breakup. Telling her in person, and in a caring manner, would have allowed her to have kept her dignity intact.

        You threw her away. You make up excuses for your abhorrent behavior, and do not take ownership of your actions. You wanted OUT. That is indeed your right. I get that, but you got OUT with little concern for her feelings. You had no right to damage her on your way OUT. All you cared about is your own wants and needs. That’s called narcissism, baby. 🙂

        Deal with it.

        By the way, I love your gravatar. The classic man feeling sorry for himself. 🙂 Have a great day, sweetheart!

    • Recovering Wayward Says:

      No, I didn’t cower. I made a decision after being in turmoil for so long. More than a year. On D-day, I had already been looking for a way out of the affair. I detail this in my blog, which, again, you clearly haven’t read. The “red flags” about my OW were piling up. I was putting it all together in my head about what she was doing. Plus, my wife and I began to really talk. For the first time in years. It gave me pause. If you read my “letter to the ex-OW” you would see my reasoning all spelled out. I wasn’t cowardly in the least. In fact, I chose the HARDER course. I had to endure my wife’s anger and recriminations for months and months. The EASIER course would’ve been to use D-day as an excuse to go out the door and to her. But I chose the more honorable course.

      So did yours. But I don’t think that makes us cowards. These things require a “choice” especially when the OW/OM is pressuring you. We chose. We just didn’t choose YOU and you can’t deal with it.

  12. AOW Says:

    One more thing that I feel compelled to adress, RW. No…I do not feel that these rules only apply to men. I think that human beings need to find it within themselves to own their own actions and to behave with kindness. For example, my oldest daughter recently broke up with her boyfriend of over a year. He was devastated and had much more of an emotional investment in their relationship. He wanted to discuss a future together, and my daughter simply had no interest in that at this time in her life, so she ended things. She looked him in the eye and explained. She listened to him, yet held firm. After a few days, the texting began. He was texting her words of love and loss and sadness. She asked me what to do. “Do I just ignore him, Mom?” My heart sank…because I imagined his pain if she were to ignore him. I imagined what it feels like to be tossed aside and thrown away, because I wasn’t what someone wanted. It made me incredibly sad to imagine this young man feeling such things. I advised my daughter to respond to him with kindness. Let him know that she thinks that he is a wonderful person, but that their lives are heading in different directions. She met him recently for lunch, and he actually thanked her for treating him with kindness when they were going through their breakup. So, no….my feelings do not just apply to men.

    • RatherBeMe Says:

      It doesn’t take much to make people FEEL better. A few words, a pat on the back, and maybe a little white lie. I agree with you. There is never any reason to make another person unhappy without regards to their feelings.

  13. AOW Says:

    RBM. I love you! You really get it, because you are a good, kind man. How right you are! It doesn’t take much to make someone FEEL better, and often it can alter the course of their actions.

  14. Recovering Wayward Says:

    Actually AOW, you’ve made a nice blog entry for me…thanks!

    • sonisagra Says:

      I think AOW wins this argument, sorry recovering. I’ve read a lot of RecoveringWayward’s blog and he does indeed come off arogant as hell. Look , you laid the pipe and scorned your other lady. Be prepared for the consequences. Haven’t you ever heard “hell hath no fury”? Talk about not taking responsibilty. You did the crime now do the time. Some OW’s go away mad and some just go away. Unfortunately RW was unlucky which who he picked. People act crazy when they have lost someone and not just in relationships. I never judge anyone who is acting funny when someone close to them has died because I have noticed in life that people go mental when loss happens, relationships or deaths. But seriously Recovering, you seem a little unstable yourself. I’m sure you were no angel to this woman when you ended things. I’m sure you were a downright dick at times. Look you made this girl believe you were something you weren’t. You used her, lied to her, led her on, put her off, then dropped her like a hot potatoe. This would send anyone mad. Is her harassing you legal, no…should she leave you alone…yes but, you did this to her, your wife, and you…don’t blog about it trying to get people on your side. I feel like you want justification, u want to be the good guy, when your blogs make you come across as arrogant, self righteous, cowardly, and kind feminine and whiney to be frank. No offense but it does. You just seem like a whiney little boy. Id bet you were a mommas or grandmas boy. A child that could do no wrong in the eyes of whomever raised you. I dunno, anyway…just my two cents.

  15. Michelle Says:

    So let me ask u this…the husband is having an affair which has heated many years ago and possibly a brief time in between. So he was found out about having an affair with someone that has been going on for several months. She found out i love you was said sex was being had and the like. A legitimate relationship if you will. He stops contact with the ow. Weeks go by and the ow and him talk once a week and progressively get nicer in conversation at this point. She calls him he
    says its hard and wouldn’t help if he called her oand said his feelings. And that’s why he claims he can’t see her. He says he still has feelings blah blah. So she asks to see him and he says he needs time to think about it. Why? he isn’t happy married so why stay? Why end contact with the ow if you have strong feelings Is there a chance he is with a new ow? Why drop the ow so quick but take her calls and be so nice and say you is her too?

  16. Emerald Says:

    I’m sure no one is reading this anymore…but I have to comment and agree with the comments against RW. Why doesn’t it ever occur to anyone that going crazy after a break up totally depends on the person. Yes the NC can be taken very badly by some OW….but not all of us. i didnt want to be viewed that way….but i had those thoughts given the way i was treated and discarded. The MM is faced with a decision…the W or the OW. Usually he chooses the wife…then the OW is made out to be crazy. If the MM chooses the OW and the W makes it a nasty horrible divorce….she’s not crazy…..he thinks…i dont like it but I deserve that because I did a horrible thing. Do you think you didn’t do a horrible thing to the OW??? Where is the rationalization in that? The OW was important enough for you to lie and break vows for an extended period of time. When it comes to your decision….depending on the time and emotion invested in the affair…shouldn’t you break it off with her respectfully if possible?? You certainly wouldn’t end your marriage that way if that’s what you decided. But for some reason in this regard the OW is rated as someone who should be treated less than decently. Under any normal circumstances you wouldn’t consider ending a normal relationship of several months or years via email or phone call with absolutely no contact to follow.

  17. Emerald Says:

    It’s unfortunate that his OW did go to extremes. Maybe if he ended if differently it wouldn’t have gone that way, maybe it would have. I think it’s just an unfortunate experience of that’s the kind of person you ended up with. It’s to bad she couldn’t let it go for herself and her own health. But many of us suffer in silence never doing anything in retaliation. We still hurt immensely…and I feel, forever changed because of it.

    • Morgan Says:

      RW shut down his blog and has a new one where he seems to think he’s the “Dr. Phil” of affair land. He also likes to brag about his 1,200 readers. I felt sick reading some of his entries–and even worse knowing someone like this guy is out on the www giving “advice”. He hates that he was ratted out and hates OW that don’t stay silent. There’s a great responsibility when someone leads people so strongly with their own jaded opinion and calls it “truth”. Hurting, devastated people are being led by this guy as a fearless leader who professes such great knowledge about affairs.

  18. alliewestern Says:

    I loved your hilarious insight into what is such a painful and agonising scenario. Thanks so much for sharing a “happy ever after” that involves OTW. Didn’t even know they existed. 🙂

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